Joe: 00:14

Welcome back to another episode of the Freedom Talks podcast, everybody. This is your host, Joe Ogden. And this week, we've got an interview, which is, I think, super fun, because I think oftentimes as physical therapists, sometimes it's not foreseen that we also deal with health issues in our own life and, like, our have things that we're working on. And this month, we're kinda focusing on just heart health and just health in general. So we're sitting down with doctor Charlie Coonan who, most recently, things have have changed for him, and I'll let him kinda talk about his story a little bit.

Joe: 00:49

But super relevant story and just kind of a super relevant topic for some of the things that we're going through here. So super excited to have Charlie on the podcast. And without further ado, let's welcome doctor Charlie Coonan.

Charlie: 01:00

Thanks, Joe. Yeah. The time for this couldn't actually be any better because February is heart health month, and, I have kinda become a bit of a spokesperson for that here. But let's see. Where do I even start with this?

Charlie: 01:15

So

Joe: 01:17

I think just start yeah. Just from, like, right where things let's start, like, when you started having symptoms

Charlie: 01:26

Okay.

Joe: 01:27

Or how you got how you got there.

Charlie: 01:28

Yeah. Okay. So when I would when I would run, before this all happened, every once in a blue moon, I would say every once every few months, three, four months or so, I would have some palpitations usually at the end of a really hard effort of some sort. It was usually also paired with or preceded by something mechanical where I would turn my head, spit, cough, swallow, something like that. And then what would happen is the palpitations would come.

Charlie: 02:01

It would feel like You're

Joe: 02:03

talking about heart palpitations. Right?

Charlie: 02:05

Yeah. Heart palpitations. Yeah. Sorry. I would feel just, quick, you know, jumping in my chest.

Charlie: 02:12

It felt like my heart rate went from beating really hard to beating even faster, but a bit more sporadically. It would last only a couple of seconds and then go away. So I didn't think too much of it at first. The first time this happened was it was probably a couple of years ago, and I went five, six months without without ever having another symptom. There was nothing else that came about.

Charlie: 02:37

There was no dizziness. There was no lightheadedness, nothing else that really seemed out of the blue, like, no no other pain that made me think anything cardiac related like chest pain, shoulder pain, neck, jaw, arm, scapular pain, nothing like that. So it began happening a bit more frequently, you know, every once every month or so, maybe once every other month. And I decided I would bring this up with my primary doctor because I had my my annual checkup with him. And he's, that's, doctor Douglas Marks over at ProHealth.

Charlie: 03:16

Shout out to him for for everything I'm about to describe to you guys. But, he he got me into the clinic, and I told him about what was going on. And he got me on an EKG right away just to see what my heart rhythm was like. And at rest, it was it was normal. There was nothing wrong with it.

Charlie: 03:31

But he decided to, get me set up with a Holter monitor. And, you know, I was skeptical going into into this treatment because, you know, I was gonna wear it for thirty days, and I didn't even know if I was going to catch an arrhythmia because they happen so infrequently. But I think it was two days after I got the Holter monitor, I caught another episode while running. And that morning, the electrophysiologist who over oversees all my care at at, ProHealth called me and said, hey. We picked something up on your Holter monitor.

Charlie: 04:07

Please come see us right now at the ER. So I went to the ER, and there I was brought back to one of the Triage Rooms, and they did all sorts of stuff. So they

Joe: 04:15

Did they meet you right there too? Like, do they meet you?

Charlie: 04:17

No. They actually didn't. I checked myself in and sat down for a couple of minutes, and then and then someone came back and got me. But they did and they did wheel me back. I wasn't allowed to walk.

Charlie: 04:27

So

Joe: 04:28

Don't wanna fill out the paperwork if you fall.

Charlie: 04:30

Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. So when I was when I was in the in in the ER, they they did an x-ray. They did they hooked me up to an EKG.

Charlie: 04:38

They had a multiple people come take a history. So I think I met an NP, a PA. I met an exercise physiologist, and all of them kinda scratched their heads and didn't have much to say, and I never really saw them again. So the the I was getting a little nervous at that point, that I thought maybe something a little little more sinister was going on. But I was admitted well, I should say I met the electrophysiologist, doctor Samuel Asneroff, down in the ER, and he took another history and decided I was gonna be admitted for further testing.

Charlie: 05:12

So then I I stayed, I stayed for an echo, which really didn't show much. And then later that same day, I had a cardiac MRI. And I don't know if, Joe, if you've ever had an MRI before, but you kinda hear about how it sounds like someone's doing woodshop right right around your head and Yeah. Yeah. That's what that's exactly what it was like.

Charlie: 05:37

And I remember the cardiac MRI I had to do it was it was somewhere in the ballpark of a 50 breath holds while the machine would take its images. So I was in the I was in the MRI for at least ninety minutes, and then they did another 15 with contrast.

Joe: 05:52

Holy man. I didn't realize it was that long.

Charlie: 05:54

It was a long time. It was a long time. So

Joe: 05:55

In the same tube?

Charlie: 05:57

In the same tube. I was in there for ninety minutes. I didn't I didn't ask for any breaks or anything, but, yeah, I just kinda, you know, toughed it out really. Yeah. So, let's see.

Charlie: 06:10

After after that testing was done, I waited for the next day. And, after considering a lot of other things that it could be, the doctor Asnerov came in and told me that what I have is it's a it's a genetic heart condition. It's called arrhythmogenic right ventricular cardiomyopathy or ARVC. And, there's a lot to learn about this, but the basics of the disease are that I have some sort of mutation in the proteins that hold my heart cells together. So when I stress my heart through exercise, I'll tear down some of those tissues just like any other muscle in our body, but I don't replace it as I normally should.

Charlie: 06:55

Sometimes it's not replaced at all. Sometimes it's replaced with fatty or scar tissue. Usually from the outside in, it progresses. But, it's there's a genetic component to this, but also a lifestyle component. A lot of people won't even know that they have this disease if they're not super active in their lives.

Charlie: 07:15

But the reason I had been going in and out of that arrhythmia, or having those palpitations while running was because I was going in in and out of ventricular tachycardia, which, they said on the Holter monitor that they had on me, my heart rate during that episode that was caught was, I think they said, 227 beats per minute, which is

Joe: 07:36

Is that what you told me yesterday? Yeah. I just still think that's crazy.

Charlie: 07:40

So much higher than it should be. So ventricular tachycardia left unchecked can turn into ventric ventricular fibrillation or just cardiac arrest. So at this point, it's like, you know, the brakes are pumped. Everything kinda comes to a screeching halt. And so, you know, it's there I remember just not even knowing what to ask or what to say when that conversation was being had.

Charlie: 08:11

But he did a really good job of he had a great bedside manner and did a really good job of explaining everything. And there weren't many options to lay out for treatment because there's really only a couple of ways it can go. So he kinda explained that I can I can be treated and, you know, with my symptoms being pretty mild, I should be able to, you know, live live a full life just with some modifications? And the other option, if I wanted to continue living how I was doing a lot of aerobic exercise and endurance training, I'd probably shorten my life. But, ultimately, I decided to have, an ICD placed, which is an implanted implanted cardioverter device or defibrillator.

Charlie: 08:59

So it's a pacemaker as well as a defibrillator that sits just below my skin, but on top of my muscle in my chest. And the device sits there, and there's two leads that run down into my heart, one to the right atrium, one to the right ventricle. So those are secondary intervention or prevention system for for the arrhythmias that I live with. I also take a beta blocker now to deter me from getting my heart rate higher and also deter me from going into any other arrhythmias to begin with. So this all happened in the span of a couple of days.

Charlie: 09:37

And, the the surgery went well. There were no real complications with it. But, you know, you're kinda just left with, like, what now? I remember I was stayed for observation for a night, but then I went home and I sat I sat down. And it was just you know, I had this moment where I was like, what what do I do now?

Charlie: 09:55

You know? So I think I think there's a lot of ways it could have gone, but I like to think that I I'm a half glass full kind of person. So it really just turned to, hey. What can I do? What can I do in this sort of situation, and what can I make of this?

Charlie: 10:14

So because the disease has progressed by exercise, I'm pretty limited in what's what's probably okay for me. And the guidelines aren't out there aren't great because everyone's situation is pretty different, and not all exercise is the same either. But there's some good resources that my my EP shared with me, and I've done a little bit of research on my own to try and figure out what's okay, but kinda landed on lighter lighter activities that aren't super intense or prolonged. So I do some walking now. I do a lot of yoga and some some lighter strength training.

Charlie: 10:54

So I should probably back up. This all happened in October, October of '20 '4. Fun fact, I was four four or five days out from running the Chicago marathon when this happened. So

Joe: 11:06

Not even. You were wasn't it Thursday that that happened?

Charlie: 11:09

Yeah. It was

Joe: 11:10

You're supposed to run on Sunday and leave on Friday?

Charlie: 11:13

Yeah. Yeah. It was a it was a couple days before. It was Wednesday or Thursday. And then the the day after I got home, I watched the race on TV.

Charlie: 11:23

So I I got to watch it from afar. So Did

Joe: 11:26

you pay for the insurance?

Charlie: 11:28

No. That's a different conversation. I tried to get the money back, and it didn't go very well. Oh, really? Yeah.

Charlie: 11:34

They they said I needed medical documents that showed that before this, I was cleared and okay to run a marathon. And then I needed documentation to show that I no longer was able, with reasoning, able to run a marathon. For what? Give them I couldn't give them the former. I sent them I sent them my my most recent checkup.

Joe: 11:58

For what? A hundred bucks? How much was it? $200?

Charlie: 12:01

Yeah. I think it was 220.

Joe: 12:03

Their well.

Charlie: 12:05

Yeah.

Joe: 12:06

Although, I mean, I'm sure they get a lot of people that just, like, aren't ready and make up some excuse.

Charlie: 12:11

Yeah. Yeah. It's it'd be pretty easy to make up a fib about something like that.

Joe: 12:16

I mean, I remember texting you on Thursday because I came into work I think, that Thursday morning and, like, oh, Charlie was sick. And I told Lisa, like, oh, like, you know, what's Charlie got going on? She's like, oh, no. He's in the hospital. Oh, jeez.

Joe: 12:30

So I texted you. I'm like, what's going on? And you're like, oh, yeah. I my monitor went off because we talked that you were wearing it. Mhmm.

Joe: 12:36

I'm like, oh, okay. Whatever. And then you were like, yeah. The doctors came in. They don't really know what's going on.

Joe: 12:44

They don't think it's what you have. Do you remember sending me that text?

Charlie: 12:47

Yes.

Joe: 12:48

Yeah. And, like, I feel like it wasn't wasn't that long later. They're like or you're like, yeah. I've got it. I was like, wait.

Joe: 12:54

What? Yeah. Didn't they come in and say you don't have that when you look at something else?

Charlie: 12:58

I can explain that. So there's two things that happened. First, I think there was miscommunication a little bit, maybe, on the team that was taking care of me. So they did the echo first. The echo usually can can tell you most of what an MRI can, but with it's less detailed, less little less accurate.

Charlie: 13:20

So the echo is pretty good for for catching a lot of, more obvious deformations or or, issues with the heart. And someone else on my doctor's team was in the room and said, you know, because of your echo, we're really not thinking this. But then it was explained to me later that, MRI definitely trumps the echo when it comes to looking at some of the stuff and that the I you know, it's a a diagnosis for this is not easy. There's a points based system that they use, and, I forget what it's out of. But I fit in the definite ARVC category based off of the results of my MRI.

Charlie: 14:03

But a lot of that stuff was not even picked up on with the echo because my mild my symptoms are pretty mild. But I think, so I've got I've got mild dilation in my right ventricle. So my end diastolic and end systolic volumes are a little bit elevated, and my ejection fraction in the right ventricle is a little bit on the it's it's still within normal range normal range, but way at the bottom. I've also got, an epsilon wave on my EKG, but that can only be picked up through certain leads. And then I've got a an arrhythmia stemming from the right ventricle, and that gains me enough points on their scale to make it a, definite diagnosis from what we know based off today.

Charlie: 14:50

So after my surgery, I had four weeks where I wasn't allowed to lift more than five pounds or elevate above above 90, so couldn't work with that. So I had a lot of time to go home and think about this and learn what I could and figure out how I'm gonna move forward from it. And there's a, you know, some I saw my I saw my primary doctor again a week or two after surgery, and he kinda shared with me that there's a good study out there that and it doesn't quite apply to me, but for people 65 and males males specifically is who the study was done on. Over ninety percent of them after being diagnosed with some sort of cardiac related issue, developed, depression of some form. So I think that's something else that we, as physical therapists, have, a pretty good grasp on, and we see this a lot because we get to spend so much time with patients.

Charlie: 15:47

You know? But sometimes we're seeing people two, three times a week for forty five minutes at a time. You spend a lot of time with people who get to know them, and you can see how things change for better or for worse as things change with their health as well. But I think that's something else that that, you know, outside of just having this diagnosis that there's a lot of other challenges that come with it. Like, there's been a lot of a lot of mental battles that I've been working through with all this just because it's such a big lifestyle change.

Charlie: 16:17

And there's a lot of unknowns with it. You know? We'll touch on this today, but my genetic testing came back negative. So pretty big question mark there as to what what could happen or what maybe will happen. And this is a progressive disease.

Charlie: 16:32

So I have heard about people going back in for checkups and seeing some improvement with it because, you know, we're not always a % certain with everything in medicine, but it's a progressive disease that there's no cure for right now. So that's a lot to digest, and I don't actually know if that's completely sunk in with me yet. But down the road, I'm probably looking at some some level of heart failure. There's, you know, the extreme cases of people who have ARVC, people find themselves on the transplant list for a new heart. And then I'm also just looking at lifelong just management.

Charlie: 17:09

I'm not really working toward getting better necessarily, but just managing it, making sure that it either doesn't get worse or if it does get worse, I know what to do about it.

Joe: 17:20

So I think that's something that's kinda crazy too, and we've talked about this a little bit, is, like, the groups you're in. Well, one, right off the bat. Right? Like, the the we've talked about, knee replacement rehab or, ACL rehab or whatever it is. We're like, okay.

Joe: 17:36

This is we know this probably gonna happen. We need to get this this. Like, there's a checklist, right, to go through. Mhmm. But when we've talked so you you get diagnosed with this.

Joe: 17:45

Right? And you have this operation, and it's like, okay. How do I get this better? Like, what do I do? Like, the area is so gray.

Joe: 17:51

Like, nothing's out there. And everyone else that you're, like, involved with, like, hearing about, they also have so many other things going on on top of this. Mhmm. Is this a primary driver? Is this a secondary driver?

Joe: 18:03

Like, that has to be super difficult to even be like, okay. What do I even if I'm gonna test the waters, like, what do I even do?

Charlie: 18:10

Yeah.

Joe: 18:11

Like, there's just nothing out there, which I think is crazy Yeah. How they also know, like, okay. We should do this. When we don't really know what's on the other side is how far is it's gonna get. Right.

Joe: 18:22

I think that's crazy.

Charlie: 18:23

Yeah. There's a the research out there specifically related to exercise for this disease has, you know, leaves much to be desired. The the couple of decent ones I found, their outcomes are generally people's or patients' risk of cardiac death. That's the outcome. Did it did it go up or did it stay the same?

Charlie: 18:44

Those are really the two outcomes that they have. So

Joe: 18:46

And it's not like you're playing with, like, okay. You know, if I if I push this ACL too soon, what's gonna happen? Well, you'll just rerupt your ACL. Mhmm. Or you'll just have pain.

Joe: 18:55

Well, you're messing with cardiac arrest if you push it too far, which is I mean, that's a that's a heavy Mhmm. Fire, I guess, hot fire that you could potentially play with.

Charlie: 19:07

Right. Yeah. It's it's true. And there's there's also the the worry of being shocked by my ICD.

Joe: 19:16

Did you get shocked at hot yoga?

Charlie: 19:18

No. No. There's, there's someone that I know that, there's there's a book I shared with Joe, and he might read about it. But there's someone out there that has a super similar story to me and published a great book about it. It's called Racing Hearts by Kate Mevick Edwards.

Charlie: 19:37

Go check it out. I just

Joe: 19:38

Are you gonna write a book now?

Charlie: 19:39

Oh, gosh. I don't think I'm in a spot to do that. Maybe maybe someday I'll share more about this. But, one one thing at a time.

Joe: 19:48

So let let's because I this is where I think it's really applicable to anything. You know? The details, you can just interchange based on what people go through. I think what you've done a really good job about that I you'll never give yourself credit for, I don't think, because you're not that type of guy. You could have easily just been taking this whole glass half empty, super negative, just garbage approach now the rest of your life.

Joe: 20:14

I haven't seen that at all firsthand. Maybe you do that at home, but I highly doubt it. And this can be applied to, again, anybody going through something serious. Mhmm. How do you change your goals?

Joe: 20:29

Because, I mean, you were prepared to run your PR marathon. Right? Mhmm. And you and I both know how much effort goes into a marathon prep.

Charlie: 20:40

Mhmm. Yeah.

Joe: 20:40

Did did you even do your shakeout run? Did you get that

Charlie: 20:43

far? No. I was I

Joe: 20:45

Or you were going to?

Charlie: 20:46

I think it was a it was a Wednesday and the race was Sunday. So I was doing pretty short run, but some race pace type short intervals and some strides. So now I'm watching shakeout.

Joe: 20:56

You're basically on your downhill. Right? All the work is done. Mhmm. You're at the pinnacle, and then boom.

Joe: 21:01

Now you have something that completely changed everything. Mhmm. Like, how how have you shaped how you think about things going forward and how you change what you do? I mean, I think it's incredible how you've just kinda taken this in stride and just kinda you just go with it. Yeah.

Joe: 21:21

Because I I'd be pissed off.

Charlie: 21:23

Yeah. There's I'm not a very angry person, and there's not much that that makes me angry. That's not that's not an emotion I've dealt with much during during this this rehab. But I think I think first and foremost, I have a really good support system. My fiancee, Anna, has been great through all this.

Charlie: 21:44

I've also got my family and and her family. They're all they're all up in Appleton Appleton, so they're not super far away.

Joe: 21:50

Up north up there.

Charlie: 21:51

Hell, yeah. So I think I think I've had all the support in the world and resources I needed to to be, to be successful even here. Like, being with other medical professionals, you guys can can kinda understand and maybe relate to some of it. But when I had to, you know, at the drop of a hat, take off for over a month, there was not a question asked. You get you and you and, Anna sent me a care package in the hospital, and Scott came to visit.

Charlie: 22:19

So I think it just shows you that I have I had a lot of support even from you guys when this was all going on. But so first and foremost, I had I had all the all the support I needed. I think, I think with me, education and just knowledge come you know, brings brings power over this stuff. So I've tried to learn as much as I can about it because that gives me a pretty good grasp as to what's going on and helps me kinda, steer myself back towards sanity.

Joe: 22:49

Because it's also it's not like you had a chance to say no. Right? They didn't even it would it's almost like they came in and said this is what we're doing. You're like, okay. Here we go.

Charlie: 22:56

I had asked that question. Could I leave and get second opinion on this? And he goes, you know, that's always your right, but best case scenario, you don't have another episode that, you know, you don't go into cardiac arrest before you get treated for this.

Joe: 23:11

So, basically, you didn't have an option. It's like, this is what we're doing. Yeah.

Charlie: 23:13

I was like, you know, that's I think I think that was when I was like, okay. We're doing this and, you know, going back, this is how this is just how it is now. But I also think this has been I've had to make a huge perspective change or take a really good look at how I view things when it comes to health in general, like, what that means and what what I'm even here for in this life and on this earth. But I think, you know, I was definitely taking, like, day in and day out, my life, my job, you know, the things I was able to do for granted. And because you don't you know, it sounds cliche, but you don't realize what you have until it's gone.

Charlie: 23:57

And so having gone through this, I've I've had to take a good look inside and say, hey. How do I how am I spending my time? Is it meaningful? Am I spending my time, my energy, my focus on things that aren't really productive, whether it be these these, you know, poor emotions, the anger, jealousy, sorrow, things like that? Or or can I can I talk myself into feeling different things?

Charlie: 24:22

Can I shift that paradigm toward, hey? I have a lot to be grateful for. Hey. I have, you know, other things in my life I can do. It's not the it's not the end of my life, but it's the end of my life as I knew it.

Charlie: 24:36

So now I have this other opportunity. It's like I've been given another chance at life. It almost feels like I have been. So I think it's taken a lot of effort, lot of conversations, and, lot of effort. But I think it's all come down to, like, perspective personally with with myself.

Charlie: 24:59

But like I said, I have all the support in the world I need to be successful with it. So I think that's been that's been super helpful.

Joe: 25:08

Let's let's kinda transition just a little bit because this kinda goes off we'll we're gonna kinda go back to the beginning again. Mhmm. For any and I think what also shows is your care at Waukesha, I think, was fantastic. Like, I don't wanna speak for you, but just listening to you talk about it. I mean, they were pretty spot on.

Joe: 25:26

Like, this is what we gotta do. We gotta do it now just to make sure things go well. Mhmm. From a provider standpoint, like, from our standpoint, I think some of these also show how important it is for us, even if we are in the outpatient setting or you're in a sniff or whatever, that you need to be on top of your skills. You never know when you're gonna need them, kinda like CPR.

Joe: 25:45

Right? You hope you never have to use it. But if you do have to use it, you have to know the skill.

Charlie: 25:50

Right.

Joe: 25:51

From a provider standpoint or even other people that may have some sort of heart issue that they don't know about, were there some signs and symptoms that maybe even you overlooked that maybe you should have gotten sooner or just things that you think are important to be aware of if you see someone or know of someone or even you yourself are dealing with something like this.

Charlie: 26:10

Yeah. That's that's good because hindsight's twenty twenty with this. Yeah. Of course. Looking back, I think I think first and foremost

Joe: 26:17

Not that you could've prevented this. Right? You didn't do anything wrong.

Charlie: 26:20

Right. Right. You know, I've always had it. So I think I think not ignoring the first couple of episodes would have been ideal. That would have gotten me in for care sooner.

Charlie: 26:33

Because the

Joe: 26:33

book you read, she was your essentially your age when this stuff happened too. Right? Yeah.

Charlie: 26:36

I think she was around my age maybe a couple of years older, but essentially

Joe: 26:39

Same ballpark?

Charlie: 26:40

Yep. Yep. I think after the days the days that I would have those those palpitations, especially if they last in more than five seconds, have they crept up to 10? I think the longer one I've had was fifteen, maybe a little bit more seconds. I was pretty fatigued those days.

Charlie: 26:59

And I just chalked it up to my training, really. I didn't think any I didn't think too much of it. But like I like I said earlier, I never had any of the of the referred pain coming from the heart, anything in the the jaw, the neck, the chest, the shoulder, the scapula, the arm, anything like that. I think there's some family history of mine that would maybe point toward, hey. Don't don't discredit your own cardiac health.

Charlie: 27:28

But for me, no. I think that the signs were really subtle, and I think it goes hand in hand with my symptoms or my my objective measures of this being super mild. But I think I was also a bit in denial. I think toward the end when I was getting ready to see my primary, I was, like, really didn't wanna open that box because I thought, you know, I know it could lie on the other side. And so I was in denial or kinda putting it off for a little while.

Charlie: 27:53

So don't do that. That doesn't get you anywhere. It doesn't help at all. So address things. It doesn't get better if you if you run from them, and you can only run from them for so long.

Joe: 28:03

Yeah. Well, Charlie, we appreciate you sharing just kinda your your story a little bit. I know it's been such a, you know, crazy change in life for you. But I think and I I don't wanna speak for the rest of our coworkers or even patients that know about this that have seen you. I think I don't think anyone can handle this the way you did.

Joe: 28:22

I mean, it's it's pretty remarkable, actually.

Charlie: 28:24

Thank you.

Joe: 28:25

As as I said earlier, I mean, I'd for lack of a better word, I'd be super pissed off for a while. Mhmm. I probably still would be. I mean Yeah. You know, it just changes what you do.

Joe: 28:35

Right?

Charlie: 28:35

That's normal. That's normal. Those you gotta go through all those emotions.

Joe: 28:39

But, but, yeah, we really appreciate you kinda sitting down and talking with us about it and just giving some perspective on it. The the key message here from this, I think, and I think you would agree is you can always do something, whether it's physical, mental, spiritual, whatever, to improve your life Mhmm. Regardless of circumstance. Right? You're still working on your physical health.

Joe: 29:04

You're just doing hot yoga

Charlie: 29:05

Mhmm.

Joe: 29:06

Which Yep. Blessings to you. I don't

Charlie: 29:09

I like the challenges.

Joe: 29:10

I've done it a couple times. I'm like, no. Thanks. But, and I think too for you, like, what's your what's your fitness goal this year? Fitness goal this

Charlie: 29:19

year? I wanna do a thirty second handstand.

Joe: 29:22

So, like, I think that shows a still a huge example. Regardless of your circumstance, you still can maximize what you can do Mhmm. And get something out of your physical health or your mental health, whatever. Mhmm. Even if something drastic like this has changed, there's still something that we can do, which I think, again, you do fantastically.

Joe: 29:40

So we really appreciate you setting a good example for everybody.

Charlie: 29:44

Yeah. Thank you. Just try to practice what it peep preach.

Joe: 29:49

Ultimate PT motto. Thanks again everyone for listening to another episode of the Freedom Talks podcast. We hope especially this episode, I really hope that somebody found some value in this because I think Charlie's story is super powerful, and motivating if you're looking for that type of motivation or really just listening and talking just how he is. Just try to even make you become a better person and try and be a good human being like Charlie is. So we really appreciate him sitting down with us.

Joe: 30:17

If anyone has any future podcast topics or ideas that they wanna hear about, please let us know. You can either comment on our social media post about it, or if you know one of our therapists, let us know or send us an email. However, you can get in contact with us, let us know. But we really appreciate all of our listeners, and we'll see everybody in the next couple weeks.