Joe: 00:14

What's up, everybody? Welcome back to another episode of the Freedom Talks podcast. This is your host, Joe Ogden. This week, we've got a fun interview with another physical therapist here at Freedom Physical Therapy, doctor Trenton Raymond. And we're talking to Trenton about this week about the fellowship that he just completed, most recently through Northwestern.

Joe: 00:36

And as I told him in the podcast selfishly, this is for me to learn more about it because it's something that's actually been always something that I've been interested in, especially the longer I'm out of school. But it also is a huge opportunity for Trenton to celebrate the hard work that he put in and to showcase the skills and the certification that he got through Northwestern because it is not easy to get something like this. So a great opportunity for us at Freedom to talk more with Trenton about his certification and his fellowship and his credentialing and to dive deeper into the mind of a really, really talented orthopedic physical therapist that, as I told him in the podcast, it's something for me. I've always looked up to Trenton. I think he's a fantastic person and therapist.

Joe: 01:23

So really good interview that we have coming up this week. So without further ado, let's get into the interview with doctor Trenton.

Trenton: 01:30

Porting. There it is.

Joe: 01:33

Do him a let you know. Doctor Trent, what's up, dude?

Trenton: 01:36

Hey, doctor Joe. Good to see you, man.

Joe: 01:39

It's been a while since Trent and I have done a podcast. When did we do the one with doctor Stowen last year already?

Trenton: 01:43

Yeah. That was last year.

Joe: 01:45

Do you still have the do you still have the, what did we get at the golf outing last year? A free round with four p foursome?

Trenton: 01:54

Yes. Yeah. Actually, we do still have that one. We, that was, at, was that at Mukwonago?

Joe: 02:01

Yeah. That was the Mukwonago outing. Yeah. We gotta we gotta get doctor Stone out there. I just thought of it as I'm bringing this up right now.

Trenton: 02:08

That's true. We do. We gotta reach out to him.

Joe: 02:12

So Trenton finished his fellowship at Northwestern. Right, Trenton? My understanding.

Trenton: 02:17

That is correct.

Joe: 02:17

Yep. And I don't think as a company, really, we've even really recognized that that much besides a little email and maybe a little bit of social media posting. So I thought today would be a really good opportunity for Trent to kinda just talk about that a little bit and also kinda highlight because Trent and I are in this kinda same part of life with starting to have kids and stuff where it's it's not easy to do these, big time continuing ed things at all. Right, Trent?

Trenton: 02:48

That's that's putting it lightly. No. So, yeah, that's that's very true. So the company, I I I appreciate you taking the time to highlight it because I think it was a big accomplishment, for sure, the biggest in my career. But it is it is a full you know, like, some there's different ways to get education in PT after graduating.

Trenton: 03:11

You can do online, like, you know, at your own pace courses. You can do non credentialed continuous ed. You can go to conferences. But there's board certified programs that are a lot more demanding, and this was one of them. And just fitting that into my life was, it was something I've always wanted to do.

Trenton: 03:35

The timing is never gonna be right. And I actually started, it before my wife and I knew we were having a kid, so that was a nice surprise in the middle of fellowship.

Joe: 03:48

Oh, that one? I guess I didn't realize the timing of it. I guess it all blends together.

Trenton: 03:52

Yeah. So I actually got accepted to the program about a month before my wife, Nicole, found out she was pregnant.

Joe: 03:59

Wow. That's a nice welcome gift for you.

Trenton: 04:01

Yeah. So she she agreed to it before we knew we were having Lincoln. So that was kinda I got grandfathered in, so to speak. Otherwise, I don't know that it would've been green lighted.

Joe: 04:13

That's good timing on your part, man.

Trenton: 04:15

Yeah. Perfect.

Joe: 04:16

Well, First, kinda back up a little bit. Like, what what it is a fellowship and kinda, you know, what did you obtain? And talk about two kinda the benefits of obtaining it versus someone that may not have it or someone who may be even looking into getting it. Like, what are the benefits of it?

Trenton: 04:33

For sure. So I'll kinda start from the beginning just so everybody's, like, on the same page there. Physical therapy as a profession, has made a movement towards, your entry level degree has to be a doctorate. Now if you graduated or had your license prior to that, rule, you get kinda grandfathered in. Some people go back and get a transitional doctorate.

Trenton: 04:57

But anyone who graduated, I think, after 2016, has to be a doctor of physical therapy to practice. So we're increasing as a profession, the requirements to be, you know, a licensed physical therapist. In that push for higher level education, the profession has started getting post doctoral programs to help further educate people whether it's in a certain type of treatment or if it's you wanna specialize in a certain field. So the first level to most of these things is a residency. So, that's a, you know, it's a post doctoral program that you enter into.

Trenton: 05:43

And during a residency, you're being basically coached within a certain field of PT. So when you graduate as a doctor, you're a generalist. You can treat in pediatrics, ortho, neuro, geriatrics, whatever you wanna do. Once you go into a residency, they funnel you into the profession subtype that you really want to focus on. So I did that.

Trenton: 06:07

I did my residency at UW Madison and specialize in orthopedics. So then you take a board certification after that and you pass it, and that was what my letters OCS mean. So then I treated for a while and decided I wanna do a fellowship. So your question is, what is that? So fellowship is now it's another version of postdoctoral training, and it's the highest level you can get in our field.

Trenton: 06:33

And it it's more tricky. What was that?

Joe: 06:36

Is it really the highest?

Trenton: 06:37

Yeah. I

Joe: 06:38

guess I didn't realize that.

Trenton: 06:40

Now there's there's different categories, of, like, letters you can get that might not have fellowships within them.

Joe: 06:48

Yeah. Okay.

Trenton: 06:48

You know? So you could you could argue that that's as high as a fellowship, but within the field where they're accredited, that's the highest level you can get. Now the fellowship so let's say the residency makes you a specialist. The fellowship is like a subspecialty within that. I did a manual therapy based fellowship

Joe: 07:09

Okay.

Trenton: 07:10

That had an emphasis in research and education. So the, you know, the premise and the focus of my fellowship that I did through Northwestern would be a little bit different than some other schools' fellowships. So where residencies are a little bit more standardized to say, like, they're all orthopedic residencies

Joe: 07:30

Yeah.

Trenton: 07:30

A fellowship can kind of take its own spin on what they want it to be.

Joe: 07:37

Now is that special to Northwestern, or is it kinda like a PhD program that once you get into the program, you can kinda move based on what you think you want?

Trenton: 07:48

This is special to Northwestern.

Joe: 07:50

Okay.

Trenton: 07:51

Yeah. So when you look at, like, how, the national conference describes a fellowship, they'll market it as a post professional funded learning experience where you have a focused area of clinical practice, education, and or research.

Joe: 08:09

Okay.

Trenton: 08:11

The one I did was actually all three. So that's what led me towards Northwestern's program over other ones. Not necessarily saying it's superior, but I did find it to be that Yeah. In that it offered significant training in advanced clinical practice with incredibly in-depth, training for manual therapy, but it had this awesome blend of education and research within it. I think all fellowship programs have some, but they often like, it's a there's often very, like, research heavy ones where you don't get nearly the clinical training or very, very, like, clinical based dry needle and manipulation, and maybe you don't get as much teaching experience.

Trenton: 08:59

And this one was just so well balanced that it I I was like, this is the one for me.

Joe: 09:04

Yeah. I'm gonna I'm gonna poke the bear right off the top.

Trenton: 09:08

Sure.

Joe: 09:10

I feel like and and we we just had this conversation with a, a couple of Freedom Physical Therapists this past weekend. This post COVID era of physical therapy is kinda going away from manual therapy. It's all exercise and movement based.

Trenton: 09:24

Mhmm.

Joe: 09:27

How would you combat that type of thinking, especially with just how some of these other clinics are opening where it's just this heavy, heavy exercise prescription, where now you have this heavy manual certification? Like, what is your kind of rebuttal to the the the change in physical therapy going on right now?

Trenton: 09:46

Yeah. So the first part I would say is that a lot of the criticism and this isn't just manual therapy. A lot of criticism from interventions or strategies come from people who don't know how to do it properly.

Joe: 10:08

Bingo.

Trenton: 10:09

So a big thing that happens is you have these nonstandardized programs teaching different versions of manual therapy, and then they try to compare them. So you're taking the highest level of trained and comparing it to somebody who had no training, and you're saying it didn't work. So a lot of the studies that I'll put in quotes, they invalidate manual therapy or they claim to.

Joe: 10:33

Right.

Trenton: 10:33

They don't they don't standardize how they're performed. A lot of the people performing them don't actually know the proper way to do it, and they might be performing them on patients that it wasn't indicated for. So then they claim that the intervention was a failure when maybe it was just misdosed or miss, targeted.

Joe: 10:54

Yeah.

Trenton: 10:55

So I think that is a big thing that has come out is, you know, a lot of the I think it's just ill founded, you know, and that people think it's not working. Yeah. Well, my counter to that is there is research to support it that people kind of ignore. And in fact, there's a huge push with the profession to go towards, like, evidence based practice. Well, some of the best evidence we can go to are called clinical practice guidelines.

Trenton: 11:25

And for those who don't know what that is, it's basically a bunch of the brightest people in the profession get together. They do a systematic review of all of the literature available. They make a very strict criteria of what studies met that criteria to say this was a good study, and then they summarize it into a statement saying this is how we should work as a profession. A lot of these clinical practice guidelines are suggesting that manual therapy should be a first line treatment for a lot of interventions or for a lot of diagnoses. So if somebody says, oh, there's no research for it, a lot of times I say, well, then why does this clinical practice guideline suggest that it's an indicated first line treatment?

Trenton: 12:09

That's somebody who went through all of the research, not one study.

Joe: 12:12

Right.

Trenton: 12:13

So that's that would be my my combat off the bat. Yeah. And then, obviously, we could get into details because the truth is and one of the best things I learned from this fellowship is that manual therapy is not for every patient. And that's what makes it effective is when you choose the right person and dose it right, it's awesome.

Joe: 12:31

So you mean you mean to tell me that if you do your job thoroughly, that there's some interventions that should work for some people and some that shouldn't if you're just doing your job

Trenton: 12:41

the way you showed. I yeah. That's

Joe: 12:44

wow. Yeah. That's crazy. And that's that's what I think that's what I think is super interesting. And and for the record, the people that can't see us, Trent and I treat very similarly.

Joe: 12:54

We we we think a lot very, very closely on how we treat Trenton just as more training than I do with this fellowship and with his OCS. But there's so much out there in physical therapy that's I feel like just one or the other. You either do manual therapy or you don't. Mhmm. And to me, that's always like I'll be honest.

Joe: 13:13

I I think that's so stupid. Why don't you just pick the patients that it works for and then don't use it for the ones that it doesn't work for? It's pretty straightforward.

Trenton: 13:20

Yeah. I think that when you take I think every patient should get some sort of exercise. I think the bad rap for manual therapy often comes from, like, you just said, this dichotomy of, like, a manual therapist doesn't move their patients. I can get the same result if I just move them with exercise. Well, there's there's research coming out.

Trenton: 13:46

Now there's it's new. It's newer because fellowships are newer, and there's not as much data. There's not many people certified or credentialed in fellowship yet, but it's showing that fellowship trained individuals get people better faster. So if you're saying exercise could do it, well, maybe you would get to the same point at year two. But, you know, manual therapy might be the avenue that gets them to the point to move better.

Joe: 14:13

Which is ultimately our goal, right, is to get people better.

Trenton: 14:17

Exactly. And if you can do that faster or, you know, if you have somebody who you give exercise and they're just not able to move because of pain, well, if we can modulate that pain and allow for a therapeutic window where we can diversify their movement, I think that's a tool belt you should have. Yeah. A a tool in your belt that you should have.

Joe: 14:36

Yeah. For sure.

Trenton: 14:37

Yeah.

Joe: 14:38

What what attracted you to the fellowship? Because I feel like the now I've looked into my OCS. I wish I would've got it right out of school like Rachel did. Just because now having kids, like, I have no idea how you did it. Like, I something like that just seems so daunting.

Joe: 14:53

But I feel like the people that take finish the OCS, I feel like the common theme is I feel so much better on my diagnostic skills, making sure I really do things appropriately. Now from there, like, what attracted you to get even more training with this fellowship?

Trenton: 15:08

Yeah. Because

Joe: 15:10

you're a great therapist. There's I haven't looked at you and been like, hey, Trent. What are you doing?

Trenton: 15:15

Thanks, man. I appreciate that. So the first thing that attracted me to the fellowship is one of my, one of my, cohort members from my residency did it.

Joe: 15:29

Okay.

Trenton: 15:30

And and when I saw him after so I saw him pre residency, during residency, post residency, and then I saw him post fellowship.

Joe: 15:41

Yeah.

Trenton: 15:42

He was a different person post fellowship. Like, completely looked at his patients and treated them so differently. And I was just I base I just asked him, like, how did you get so much better? Like, in the and to me, it seemed seemed like no time, but to him, it was a year. Right?

Trenton: 16:01

But he he said it was the fellowship. So that's what took me into really looking into it and considering it. It just want I did a residency because I wanted to be the best. And at the time, you think you are. But really what they did is they took a student and made me a clinician.

Trenton: 16:20

Now they funneled evidence into me and said, like, this is how you do it right. Yeah. They didn't necessarily take the big picture and make me an expert. Even though it the OCS letters kind of technically say that

Joe: 16:34

Right.

Trenton: 16:34

You're still figuring things out. The fellowship truly makes what I would say an expert clinician, and that's what I wanted to be. Now I'm still figuring things out, but this accelerated me down that path quite a bit in my opinion.

Joe: 16:52

I would agree. Based on what I've seen as far as how they promote it and what they have out there, which I I totally agree with. I've never thought about it from this way. I don't think it's your fellowship. Maybe it is.

Joe: 17:09

Where they look at the general PT degree, and that's, like, basically your basic MD. Where if you're gonna come to an orthopedic physical therapist, you wanna see an orthopedic doctor.

Trenton: 17:19

Right.

Joe: 17:20

Mhmm. Maybe it is maybe it is on the website for your fellowship. And I saw that once, and I'm like, man, that really makes sense. Like, what do

Trenton: 17:28

Yeah. So in general so PTs now have direct access. Right? So we could be a first line practitioner they're coming to see.

Joe: 17:37

Right.

Trenton: 17:39

If the field is moving in that direction, it would make sense that you'd start specializing so people know where they're going with their of injury. Nothing against the generalist PT. Many of them through years of experience have become very good clinicians, but just big picture as a profession. You wanna become doctors. You want direct access.

Trenton: 18:03

You want this, like, next level push. It does make sense that they create residencies and fellowships to truly funnel you into it. Because if you look at the MD model, that's what they did to get the best of the best to treat that type of thing.

Joe: 18:17

Right.

Trenton: 18:18

So I think that's where the profession is going. It just takes time.

Joe: 18:22

Right. Now do you does your does your reimbursement change?

Trenton: 18:30

Not yet. So as of right now, that would be standardized For Either just as for because PT across the board is like a fee schedule that's consistent.

Joe: 18:39

Yeah. Did they discuss that all in your fellowship? Like, are they trying to push from that from a jurisdiction standpoint or a law standpoint?

Trenton: 18:49

We didn't get into that a ton, so I don't wanna speculate and, you know, make stuff up.

Joe: 18:54

Yeah.

Trenton: 18:54

I do know that, like, at, at some of our conferences, like, people talk and we want that. Or I think it would be a good idea. Like, hey. Wouldn't it make sense, like, as a profession as we grow for those reimbursement rates to be consistent with that? And Yeah.

Trenton: 19:11

Other fields have that. You know? So, like, if you're specialized in a certain way, you get the insurance will value it higher.

Joe: 19:18

Right.

Trenton: 19:21

I think across the board because PT is pretty new to being doctors and having residents that it's probably, you know, it's it's probably just gonna take time for those switches to be made. But I I think it's probably on the horizon, but I don't know that anything's actually been written.

Joe: 19:37

Got it. Okay. How would you say I know you just finished, you know, relatively recently. How would you say this has already kinda changed just either how you look at things as a whole or maybe even just like a certain patient demographic that you see? Like, god.

Joe: 19:51

This is what I I should have been doing the whole time. Like, how does it just change how you are as a clinician?

Trenton: 19:56

Yeah. It has changed me in a lot of different ways. It's hard to pick one.

Joe: 20:02

Yeah. But I

Trenton: 20:03

had to put a I had to funnel it towards, like, the biggest thing that challenged my mind to think differently and how I look at diagnoses different now. I would use the term pain mechanisms. Okay? So I think they touch on this in PT school pretty well now, but it doesn't go into a lot of depth

Joe: 20:25

Yeah.

Trenton: 20:26

Of the idea of we learn a diagnosis, and we learn symptoms that fit that diagnosis. But we don't necessarily interpret the type of pain the person's having within that diagnosis. So for example, you could have there's three main categories of pain, and one diagnosis might present in those different categories and if you you would treat those differently. So for example, two separate categories would be nociceptive pain versus nocioplastic pain. So nociceptive pain is gonna be your classic, like, tissue injury that is responding relatively proportionally to the injury that happened.

Trenton: 21:22

Nociceptive pain or, nociplastic pain is, it's a heightened response to an injury, and it's more of what we'll call, like, a centralized pain. So we can do different interventions that you'll learn with manual therapy can target different pain pathways that might act on the body more from a central perspective rather than trying to just target a tendon and overload it. Okay? So, you know, for example, if somebody has more hyperalgesia, which is just an inflated pain response or something that we call allodynia, which is, like, pain in response to things that aren't noxious. So, you know, like, maybe just, like, the feel of your sock on your foot hurts.

Trenton: 22:14

Like, that shouldn't hurt, but it does. But the person's coming to you for Achilles tendonitis. You're gonna treat that nociplastic presentation a lot different than you treat a more classic typical nociceptive pain driven Achilles tendonitis. And I think that was something I bucketed things into the diagnosis. I didn't really think about the pain mechanisms pain mechanisms driving it.

Trenton: 22:42

So a bigger picture view has really led me to, to dose and use different manual therapy or exercise techniques for those presentations, and it's just changed how I approach a lot of different things.

Joe: 22:59

I think that's something that I've said this so much as as I keep practicing and taking continuing ed. It's a it's a blessing and a curse, I feel like, of of learning more where you're you're you're blessed that you're you know more information. But then you look back at some cases and you're just like, dang. I wish I would have known that now.

Trenton: 23:18

Uh-huh.

Joe: 23:19

I I could have done that so much differently versus just doing this, this, and this. Not that it's wrong. Right? But there's always something better that we normally do.

Trenton: 23:28

Yeah. So if I this is just my opinion. If you're a good clinician, you should probably always be doing that because it means you're growing and you're reflecting and you're thinking. Yep. The moment I look, you know, look back and say I've done everything perfect, I should probably hang it up.

Trenton: 23:47

Because God. If I

Joe: 23:49

had to hang it up now, I'd be at one poor man.

Trenton: 23:54

But, you know, the the fellowship was so good about you know, people are wondering, like, what do you do during fellowship? Or what what did you take from it? You know, a big part of it was just recognizing how how much I don't know and how how much there is to grow. And it kind of reexcited my love for the field again because it's very easy to get in a rut or treat and think you're doing well or run into difficult patients. And whether people admit it or not, we blame the patient sometimes.

Trenton: 24:23

Like, oh, they just didn't get better. They didn't do their exercise. The fellowship challenges you to really it doesn't it doesn't let you get away with that until you've exhausted every other option. And once you realize there's so many other options to exhaust before we just write it off as it didn't get better, you realize how much there is to learn. And that was a huge, huge thing from the fellowship is I now my my hypothesis list for every patient, my differentials is so vast of what it could be versus how tunnel visioned I was when I thought I knew everything.

Trenton: 25:06

And I think that's what makes us special in PT is we I think we're all starting to think that way, and it's awesome. And in direct access, you have to. You know, you think, you know, not that every referral is perfect or every referral is bad, but at least you had someone else kinda give you an idea beforehand that you can double check. When somebody walks in your door I mean, if you just assume it's musculoskeletal or you think like, oh, that's classic, you can miss a lot of things.

Joe: 25:36

I think that's what's really cool about the fellowship, and I've looked at it 8,000,001 times. And I feel like especially at Freedom, I mean, just based on us having conversations with one another, there's a lot of us that are really, really good, which is a fun work environment to be a part of.

Trenton: 25:55

Mhmm.

Joe: 25:56

But the fellowship, I think, based on what I've seen and you can correct me if I'm wrong. I don't wanna put words in the fellowship's mouth or your mouth. But it also shows the importance of indirect access. You need to be on top of your game for everything at all times. It's kinda like CPR.

Joe: 26:12

Right? You have all this knowledge. You hope to never have to use some of this stuff. But when it does, you need to be ready to do it.

Trenton: 26:19

Yeah. I think that's an I think that's exactly why I did the residency first and then the fellowship Yeah. Other than my desire to learn. It was that idea of I knew I wanted to be in private practice. And if you're gonna be a direct access practitioner in private practice setting, you have to be ready for anything that comes in that door.

Trenton: 26:44

And there's there's ways to prepare yourself, you know, independently. I personally felt I needed, like, a structured system with mentorship to get me to that point. And that's what these programs are, is structured learning with proven milestones that when you do this, you're prepared, and it kinda reinforces that you're keeping up with, like, these standards of the time.

Joe: 27:12

Yeah.

Trenton: 27:12

And I I wanted that for myself, and it helped me feel a lot more comfortable.

Joe: 27:17

That's awesome. Now the problem with talking to you is now I'm gonna wanna do this.

Trenton: 27:22

You should.

Joe: 27:24

So now so you've got your fellowship. Okay? Now what?

Trenton: 27:29

Well, my wife said nothing else.

Joe: 27:30

Enjoying it besides anyone. Right?

Trenton: 27:33

Nicole said nothing more. No. Right now, the and I I think I speak for anybody who's ever done a fellowship.

Joe: 27:43

Yeah. That's what I mean. Like, where does that whole thing go?

Trenton: 27:47

The first part and I'm in the midst of this now. That first year after fellowship is just digesting it.

Joe: 27:54

Yeah. For sure.

Trenton: 27:55

I mean, it is like drinking from a fire hose. Just it's so much that you're working through, and now is the time to digest, reflect, and implement it into who I wanna be as a clinician in total. Because a lot of times, the fellowship doesn't tell you this template for everything. You know? They don't give you the answers to everything, but they teach you a system and a mindset that you can figure stuff out.

Trenton: 28:25

And within that, then they teach you awesome techniques of how to use and when to use them. So right now, I'm playing around with how can I most efficiently implement that in our clinic with what with our system? Like, for example, during fellowship, if I would do an evaluation with a mentor, I had more time. You know? So I I might have an hour, an hour fifteen.

Trenton: 28:49

Well, now I have forty five minutes. So it's like, how do I take these skills and really synthesize them, and use them in my daily life now? So I think number one, the first step is, again, digest and implement into, like, who am I gonna be now? Second thing is education. So I told you that this, the fellowship had, basically was a manual therapy fellowship with an emphasis on research and education.

Trenton: 29:17

So I wanna get into some teaching, but then I hope future mentors or, future fellows and things, I get to be a mentor for them and give back to the profession of what I've learned and have more clinicians, like, that I can kind of pass along some of the things I've learned, help promote residencies and fellowships to be more standard and more, like, coveted rather than feared because, I'll be honest with you. Like, it was daunting. It was hard, but people can do them, and I think we're scared by them. But if I can do it, other people can get it done. You know?

Trenton: 29:56

I I wasn't, necessarily, you know, the top of my class or anything that you have to be to do that.

Joe: 30:04

Well, I appreciate you sharing a lot of this trend. I know I I don't wanna speak for everybody, but I think this is a general consensus. I think as a as a company, we're super proud of you. I don't I've always looked up to you as a as a therapist. You know, I think what you do is is everything is right.

Joe: 30:19

You talk to people the right way. You try and get better all the time, and I think this fellowship just proves it. So I appreciate you sharing, you know, kinda how it went, more about the fellowship.

Trenton: 30:29

Thanks, Joe. I really appreciate you taking the time to let me speak to it and, you know, just kinda share what I did.

Joe: 30:35

And for the record for everybody, it's Friday afternoon when we're recording this. Trenton had an opening the last part of his day, and I put a podcast in there with asking him first. Trenton's got a baby at home. He's got a wife at home, and he's like, oh, no. I'll just stay at work and do a podcast for work.

Joe: 30:51

So, Mike, when you're listening to this, Trenton stayed late to do this.

Trenton: 30:56

Well, you did too, Joe. Right? So

Joe: 30:58

I still got an email, man. It's Friday afternoon. They work us like dogs here in Fox Point. We don't we don't we don't just get to go home on Fridays at Fox Point. You gotta work.

Joe: 31:10

You gotta work.

Trenton: 31:10

That's right.

Joe: 31:14

Alright, Joe. Thanks for doing this.

Trenton: 31:16

Hey. Thanks for giving me the chance to talk about it. Yeah. And thanks for the, you know, the kind words, and keep it up, man. You're doing great stuff.

Joe: 31:23

Thanks, buddy. We'll talk soon. Okay?

Trenton: 31:25

Alright. See you, Joe.

Joe: 31:27

See you.